Thieves' Gambit, Ep. 2: Theme
We’re starting with theme! Kayvion Lewis introduces the theme of TRUST in the very first sentence of Thieves’ Gambit. In this episode, Erin and Anne-Marie explore the different strategies Lewis uses to explore the theme through characters, situations, and plot twists that challenge the main character Ross’s view of the world.
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Erin Nuttall: I'm just full of metaphors today. I think you should pat me on the back.
[Music intro]
[00:00:03] Anne-Marie Strohman: Welcome to season two of the Kid Lit Craft Podcast. This season we're doing a deep dive into Kayvion Lewis's YA Thriller Thieves’ Gambit. Today we're focusing on theme. I'm Anne-Marie Strohman, and I write for children and young adults as well as short stories for adults.
[00:00:22] Erin Nuttall: Hi, I'm Erin Nuttall. I write for children and young adults, and I focus on those fun young adults.
[00:00:28] Anne-Marie Strohman: At KidLit Craft we look at mentor texts to discover the mechanics of how writers do what they do, so we can apply it to our own writing.
[00:00:36] Erin Nuttall: Thieves’ Gambit by Kayvion Lewis is a story of Ross Quest, who has a complicated family life, and who is in the middle of a wild international thieving competition known as the gambit.
[00:00:50] Anne-Marie Strohman: So Erin, how did you decide where to start with this book?
[00:00:54] Erin Nuttall: That is a good question because there is so much going on and you'll probably hear me say that a lot because there are layers on layers and busy, busy, busy, just moving all the time with this book. So, yeah, it was tricky to decide what to start with. But I decided to start with theme because it is such an integral part of the story and it is what Kayvion Lewis is asking us as readers to focus on as we read the story.
[00:01:23] Anne-Marie Strohman: Let's start with vocabulary. What words or terms do you have for us, Erin?
[00:01:27] Erin Nuttall: Well, first, let's talk about the word theme. The theme of a story is, as you might expect, the central idea, message, or underlying belief that the author wants to convey to the reader. It is the unifying element that ties together all the other parts of the stories. Themes are often broad and open-ended and can be universal in nature, transcending cultural barriers. They can frequently be summed up in a single word, such as love, death, or betrayal, or in this instance, trust. The theme can be overt where the reader understands from the get-go what the theme is. And it can also be an idea that is built up over time. So it gradually dawns on the reader.
[00:02:09] Anne-Marie Strohman: So how does Lewis handle it? Is it right up front or is it something that develops slowly over time and is revealed?
[00:02:15] Erin Nuttall: Oh we-we know from the get-go. The very first line is “A Quest can't trust anyone in this world except for a Quest.”
[00:02:24] Anne-Marie Strohman: There it is! Right in the first sentence. So as you mentioned, theme is really what holds the book together as one story. Typically, everything in the story ends up pointing in the direction of the theme. And when we talked to Martine at the end of last season, she talked about having a guiding question, what it means to be good, and that's. That's a theme. You can kind of phrase it in terms of a question or just a word.
[00:02:47] Erin Nuttall: Right. It's the thing that you want to explore. The idea that you want to explore. So let's spend a minute looking at why Kavyion might have chosen trust as her theme. Side note, I am totally aware that if I were a fancy scholar I'd refer to the author of a book we're discussing by their last name.
But I couldn't do that with Martine since she's my mentor and friend. And now, after spending so much time with Kayvion Lewis' book, I feel like we could be friends. So I'm going to keep up with the first name references. I hope you don't mind Kayvion.
[00:03:18] Anne-Marie Strohman: I'm sure she'd be okay with it. Kidlit is a friendly space. We are all on a first name basis, right?
[00:03:24] Erin Nuttall: I, I sure hope so. If not, I'm sorry. Okay. So back to why Kayvion may have chosen trust as her theme for this book, and how we as writers might find a theme for our own work. When we're looking at theme, there are all sorts of reasons why we might choose a specific idea. It might be something that we're trying to work out for ourselves, dealing with grief, a big move, or maybe a major setback has us feeling a lack of confidence. Maybe we've seen our kid get bullied or be the bully. Our own life experiences can provide a fertile field for themes to explore in story.
In Thieves’ Gambit Kayvion has used another tool to find her theme. As writers one way to come to a theme is to think about the main character and what obstacles she'll face, how she'll grow, and see if you can find a theme that will align with her journey.
And it adds tension and dimension if it's something that diametrically opposes a major aspect of her life. So, for example, an international thief is struggling with trust. I just, I think it's the chef's kiss that she picked something that was so in opposition with one another. Right? A thief.
You know, there's no honor among thieves. We have this whole idea. And yet this is in fact what Ross is trying to figure out.
[00:04:42] Anne-Marie Strohman: Yeah, I often talk to my students about finding the story organically from the character. But sometimes pulling out and taking a bird's eye view and seeing what makes sense for the story and that larger view is a really good strategy. When you're in a book like this that has high stakes and you want these stark contrasts that amps up the tension.
And as you mentioned, tension and dimension are part of what's happening in this book. So can you talk about how a theme can bring both of those things into a story?
[00:05:11] Erin Nuttall: Yeah, sure. And I love that you brought up that using a theme is a great strategy for the high stakes and stark contrast. I think that we might be tempted to, not put a theme into our writing. If we are writing something that feels less literature and more commercial, we might think, yeah, this is just a fun, fast exciting book.
So I—I don't need a theme, but I think what makes it a story that we want to read and that we want to go back to and that we're invested in is something like theme and partly because you're right, it does add tension and dimension.
So let's look at those two ideas. Attention and dimension through Ross's struggle with trust. First of all, because of who she is she only has her mom and her auntie for a friend. And so here she is a teen without friends, and then she's thrown into the gambit with a whole passel of other kids her age.
And suddenly there is this tension between what she wants, which is a friend and what she believes, which is she can't trust anyone. And then it also adds dimension to who Ross is as a human because she then has these relationships which are complicated.
[00:06:39] Anne-Marie Strohman: So let's look at a few of these relationships. I found the frenemy Noelia so compelling. Tell me about her.
[00:06:47] Erin Nuttall: So, yes, this is how, this is how Ross describes her. On page 52, “Noelia Boschert was the one person on the planet I would've paid money to never see again.” She then goes on to tell us about how she and Noelia were childhood friends 'cause they both come from these families of international thieves.
So they were at a ski camp together one winter when they were eight, and they became super besties. But then Noelia betrays her. And so after that Ross hates her. Basically she says, “Noelia Boschert has been a recurring cockroach that kept crawling into the corners of my life ever since.”
And it really underlined for her that a Quest can only trust another Quest. But, as they are reintroduced to one another, they are finding that they have other things in common. They both really like interesting shoes. And they both are professionals at what they do and they work hard to, to do it really well.
So there are a number of ways that they, would naturally become friends. And yet because of this early betrayal and because of her worldview of Quest can only trust a Quest, Ross is keeping her at arm's length.
[00:08:09] Anne-Marie Strohman: Yeah. And you can see that in the way that she interprets everything Noelia does. She interprets it as a betrayal or a potential betrayal, right? Noelia teams up with someone else and Ross is like, well, obviously she's gonna throw that person under the bus, right? Like it's, she just has this complete, not hatred, but just very high distrust of Noelia because of that early betrayal.
[00:08:35] Erin Nuttall: Right. She expects that Noelia will always act in her own best interest and that she has no loyalties. Not only towards herself, but like you said, other people. And so she has a very cynical view of who Noelia is.
[00:08:52] Anne-Marie Strohman: Kayvion does a really smart thing in this book with this theme of trust by forcing Ross into situations where she's required to trust people. If we go to that bird's eye view and look down at the story, and we know we're dealing with this issue of trust, we know she believes that a Quest can only trust a Quest, what can you do to challenge her? Put her in a situation where she has to trust. During the thieves’ gambit, there's one challenge where the eight people who are left are divided into two groups and there's a group of four and it is Ross, Kyung-soon, Mylo, and Devroe, and they have to work together.
So talk to us about the members of that group. What happens with them?
[00:09:37] Erin Nuttall: So immediately Ross is in an uncomfortable position because she doesn't want to trust anyone. And her interactions with the people in her group thus far have been relatively positive, but she definitely has her walls up. Kyung-soon is smart. She's easy to like, she is very open and essentially she is the opposite of Ross.
And Ross really wants to like her and she doesn't know how. For instance, in page 123, Ross is interacting with Kyung-soon and Devroe and she's talking to Devroe, but Kyung-soon pulls her headphones off and says, huh, ‘cause she thought that they were talking to her. And Ross starts to say, I didn't say, but Devroe lies and says, she said she likes your music and Ross says, “I was gonna tell Kyung-soon that I definitely had— hadn't said that, but she perked up before I could say anything. ‘Really, it's the DKB, the k-pop group. Do you listen to them?’” And from that point on Kyung-soon just reels Ross in with her chatter about K-pop and her celebrity crushes.
And she's just a really fun personality. Mylo on the other hand, he is from Vegas and he is funny. He's laid back, he's prepared. And he is just open to liking the people in his group which Ross doesn't really understand. And so you're right Ross is forced to reevaluate how she feels about trust and about friends because she wants friends so badly, but she also doesn't know how to trust people.
And she spends the rest of the book trying to figure out. Of these kids in particular, who, if any of 'em she can trust and can be friends with?
[00:11:34] Anne-Marie Strohman: Well, and it seems too like these characters provide other options for her. She goes into it believing that she can't trust Noelia. You know that she's been taught to be out for her own interest. And so to meet people who seem trusting and who seem open to relationship, but are also thieves, presents an interesting conundrum that she maybe doesn't have to be the way that she was taught as a kid.
[00:12:00] Erin Nuttall: Right, and Devroe actually spends a good portion of the time trying to get that idea through Ross's head that trust is something that is available to her. For instance before that the group task starts they have to take a train. And so Kyung-soon proposes that they offered a truce during the train ride so that the two groups can just kind of have a break and they won't have to be on high alert. They won't be trying to thwart one another during the train ride. And Ross is like, that is the dumbest idea. She really is. She's like, they won't agree to that. If they do, they're lying. Like she immediately doesn't want to do that, but Devroe he says “‘I agree we can't trust them, but that doesn't mean asking for a ceasefire wouldn't hurt. Not everyone is out to get you all the time you know,’ and he shot a meaningful look my way.” So he recognizes that this is Ross's Achilles heel, and he is trying to push her into being able to trust more.
[00:13:07] Anne-Marie Strohman: Right, and he is, we've saved the best for last, of course. But because he’s the romantic interest, he's got this friendship thing going on and this teammate thing going on. But because there's this romance thread, there's extra tension, and maybe he'll have extra clout in talking to Ross about this stuff.
[00:13:26] Erin Nuttall: Yeah, for sure. And yes, we did save Devroe for last. And I am—because it's just a cute description of him and you learn a lot about Ross and about Devroe—I'm going to read a paragraph or two from page 59 where Ross is introduced to him.
“My head shot up and I was breathlessly face to face with a new boy.
My heart skipped. Another black person. Finally. With a sly smile, he swipes up the card, turning it over. His queen of hearts. His British accent took me aback for a second. It was so smooth. And then I sat back, my stomach started flip-flopping and let him return the card to the headphones. The new boy was the sharpest dressed of all wearing a button down vest with a tie tucked in.
His sleeves were folded to his elbow, showing off his Rolex. His hair though coarse and sponged to perfection, was just textured enough to make me think he had a little something else mixed in him besides black. That, and his eyes, which were just brown enough that I could tell they weren't fully coal. He was beyond handsome and judging by the way he stood and that first line he dropped on me, he knew it and used it to his vantage whenever he could. I mentally chided myself. Ross Quest was not going to be that girl who started swooning over the hot guy after five minutes.”
So, I did skip a little bit, so I hope it all made sense. But I love this introduction of Devroe because it tells us a lot about him.
He's very cute and he knows it according to Ross. So she falls for him and then starts putting up walls. Where she says he was beyond handsome and he knew it and he used it to his advantage whenever he could. That's what she expects. She expects that he is using his attractiveness as a resource and not that he, would not take advantage of that.
[00:15:25] Anne-Marie Strohman: Yeah, she just automatically interprets it through that lens of distrust. Right?
[00:15:31] Erin Nuttall: Right. Oh, just to go back, he has a British accent. I mean, hello. So cute. But yes, she can't fall for him. And she does have that lens of distrust, those walls, she shoots them right up. So then a little later they're doing an individual challenge, but he approaches her and, again, “his vivid brown eyes gazed at me. I tried to focus. He was probably used to using his looks to disarm people.” So again, she's putting that up. She says, “‘what do you want?’ ‘Work with me’, he said, surprising me. ‘Some of the targets are easier than others, but all of them would be easier with two people rather than one. How about a little alliance?’”
So he wants to use an alliance to his advantage. But because of Ross's troubles with trusting people, she, immediately thinks, don't trust them. “Did he think I was the most pliable, easiest to manipulate?” And then after she goes back and forth with him a little bit of banter, she thinks back in her head, rule one, if they're not a Quest, they can't be trusted. Today was not the day to be stress testing that. And then she doesn't work with him and actually pays a pretty big price because of it.
So I like that Ross's inability to trust also extends beyond friends, but into romance as well. I think that, that is another spot of tension that Kayvion has put in here for the readers because we have everything that's going on with the gambit and then we also have what's going on with the possible friendships and then we have what's going on with the possible romance. She has added another layer to that. Like I said, there's a lot going on in this book. She's added another layer to that and Devroe, he has an opposite worldview from Ross and he, on page 125 says, “he looked dead at me as he spoke.
‘If you're not making friends, you're making enemies.’” And so that not only adds a layer of tension because he has an idea that he thinks that the way to win the gambit is to be able to trust people. While Ross obviously doesn't, but then there's also a dimension where here you have a successful international thief who trusts people, which is the opposite of what Ross is able to do.
So these friendships and this potential romance give us a lot to deal with emotionally while we're also dealing with the high adrenaline action that's going on with the gambit.
[00:18:13] Anne-Marie Strohman: This theme of trust is so interesting because for Ross's whole life that code to not trust people has been a strength. And going into the gambit, she sees it as a strength, and then she sees Devroe who's like, Hmm. Like trusting people might be the strength, you know?
[00:18:31] Erin Nuttall: Right. I don't know if she actually gets to that thought for quite some time. She…
[00:18:37] Anne-Marie Strohman: Right. But she's very clear. Yeah. And I think Kayvion Lewis did a really interesting thing by stating that theme right at the front. And for it to be kind of a mantra for Ross's family, it brings that theme out into the open. I think in a lot of novels the theme is a little bit more hidden. You might have a statement of the theme somewhere in the first act but it might be more implicit in the story and revealed, and here we can just go straight into dealing with it and what the contrasts are and who has an opposite view because it's so present for Ross herself.
[00:19:16] Erin Nuttall: Right. And I have been thinking about that because I agree with you. I think that a lot of writers want to sort of layer the theme in, like it's word lasagna and you know, you might have the theme in there, but it's not going to be the most prominent thing. You have to, you know, eat a whole plate full before you realize what the theme is. And it is so obvious. But I think that that is actually a really fantastic idea when you're doing a book like this that not only has a lot going on, but also is so obvious in everything else, right? And, that is a hundred percent positive. It's the style of book. This is what you want in a thriller.
You want, there to be action and you want there to be conflict, and you want there to be high stakes and you want there to be high drama. And so if you had that theme of trust, I mean, maybe it could work, if it was just, you know, underlying and there in a whisper, but everything else is like a rock band. I'm just full of metaphors today. I think you should pat me on the back. So, but everything else is like a rock band. And if you just have, you know, like someone whispering trust, trust in the background, you might miss it and miss that tension and miss that extra dimension that it gives to her character. And so rather than doing that, she has given it, you know, to keep the rock band metaphor she's, she's made it like the bass right? Or the drumbeat somewhere in the rhythm section for sure.
[00:20:54] Anne-Marie Strohman: And I think when I'm writing, oftentimes it takes me a draft or two or three, maybe four, to figure out what the theme is, right? I tend to start with character and situation, and so it will take me a while to get there. And then the process of revision is making sure that everything in the story is connecting with that theme.
And because we have these human brains that do all this networked stuff, oftentimes it's already there. I just have to draw it out a little bit more. And I don't actually know how Kayvion Lewis approached this. Please let us interview you, Kayvion, so we can hang out.
[00:21:30] Erin Nuttall: Just, yeah, I was just gonna say that. I was like, well, I hope she lets us interview her so that we can ask, because if I were betting, I would bet she wanted to do a fun book about international thieves competition for teens. Like just saying those words is like, so fun. Right? And then before she even started, I bet she thought, well, what would be the, what would be the really hard thing? What would be the Achilles heel for a thief? And obviously. Trust. So I don't know if she did it from the beginning, but I could see how she might have, and that would save you a lot of effort too, actually, if you do it from the beginning.
[00:22:09] Anne-Marie Strohman: It doesn't always work that way, but sometimes it does. And even I think if you do it from the beginning, there's still like, there's still revision where you heighten it or refine it or sharpen it. And theme is what helps you kind of know what scenes to keep and what characters to keep. Because it is that thing that makes it unified and coherent. It makes it tied together.
[00:22:29] Erin Nuttall: Love how you're like making this more accessible to more people. So good job for you. Because I want to say, wouldn't it be fun if it all just came out in one draft and you're like, no, we have to revise.
[00:22:43] Anne-Marie Strohman: It never does. It never does. We have to revise. Even when you're done, there's more revision.
So we've talked about the places where Ross has been challenged to trust. And we talked about that one early betrayal when Noelia betrayed her as a child in that backstory section. Can you talk a little bit about this contrast, trust versus betrayal? She's been taught not to trust people in order to avoid the risk of betrayal, but betrayal's really hard to avoid. So talk to us about how betrayal plays into this theme of trust.
[00:23:16] Erin Nuttall: Well, I hate this part because this is the biggest spoiler alert part. So I hate spoiling, especially a book like this where there are lots of surprises and twists and things. So just be warned. Spoiler alert. Yeah, it turns out that poor Ross has had a lot of betrayals throughout her life, even though she tried so hard not to ever trust.
And so. The biggest one is from her mom. So what got Ross into the competition in the first place was that her mom was kidnapped, as we mentioned, and she had that billion dollar ransom hanging over her head, and as rich as Ross and her family are, a billion dollars was just too much to be able to pull together to save her mom.
So Ross gets into the competition. Well, Ross finds out later that her mom set up her own kidnapping and so I know, I know. It was a betrayal right there. Ross has been terrified for her mom's safety this whole time. She has felt guilt because she thought it was her own fault that her mom got kidnapped.
And then to find out that her mom staged it was a massive, massive betrayal. And along those lines mom apparently has been betraying her. I mean, maybe it's too much to say she's been betraying her her whole life over and over, but she definitely actually is the source of the rift with Noelia.
As Mom saw that Ross and Noelia were getting close and she wanted to teach Ross not to trust anyone, and so she set it up so it would seem like Noelia betrayed her and it would seem to Noelia that Ross betrayed her. So Ross had another reason to feel that knife in the back from her mom.
Both of these revelations obviously come toward the end. And what happens is Ross was getting to the point where she was feeling like maybe she could trust people. They had had a successful heist, her group, and she thought that maybe Devroe was right, maybe there were ways that they could trust people.
But no. Finding out about her mom's betrayal just puts an end to that idea of trust. There's another big betrayal, poor Ross. There's another big betrayal at the end of the book as well with Devroe. And that is actually what sets up the second book. I think that is a topic for another episode or maybe a subtopic or something that we can talk about because I think ideally if this were a standalone book, we would hope that Ross would come to the end of the book and trust people. But because this is a…
[00:26:08] Anne-Marie Strohman: That's kind of what I was expecting.
[00:26:10] Erin Nuttall: I was too. I did not know that this was planned as a series when I read it. And so I thought I knew where it was going, but then we had some surprise twists at the end. So not only Ross felt the betrayal, but me as a reader felt the betrayal. Oh, I'll tell you, when I found out that Mom did all that stuff. Woo.
[00:26:29] Anne-Marie Strohman: It really complicates the theme, right? As a writer, it's like, Ooh, that feels risky. Like I'm trying to have this theme of trust and that. You know, presumably she can trust people and yet, I'm gonna throw some big betrayals to say, oh no, you can't trust people. Your mom's the one who told you that rule and now you know she's betrayed you.
You know, you can't trust her anymore. But is she right about that at all? Like, it just makes it so complicated.
[00:26:52] Erin Nuttall: It really does, and it's an interesting thing from multiple perspectives as from like the reader perspective. Like I said, it was, you know, a punch to the gut to find out that mom was the architect of all this pain and misery and that she did it for what feels like a selfish reason.
And maybe in the next book we'll find out more about mom's thinking, but it feels pretty selfish to me that she, she makes those choices. So as a reader, it definitely adds depth to the story and adds emotional feeling to a story that could just be you know, in the fun lane. But now I have to go into the sad lane for a little bit, right?
Here I go again. These great metaphors. I know you love it. But that—it makes the book better, right? So from a reader's perspective, those betrayals make the book better. From a writer's perspective it is fantastic to have the person who gave you this belief that you can only trust your mom, you can only trust your auntie, and then find out that that person double betrays you. Whew. That is really fantastic from a writer's perspective. and it is because you know how it affects the reader, obviously. But looking at that, you have a thief who's learning to trust, and then you have the person who tells you not to trust, then betrays you. Those opposing forces are awesome.
[00:28:23] Anne-Marie Strohman: Yeah, and oftentimes when you're writing, if you're like, oh, I can't do that, you should try.
[00:28:28] Erin Nuttall: Ooh, that's a good tip.
[00:28:29] Anne-Marie Strohman: Oh, that probably isn't gonna work. Try. Try it. See what happens. Paint yourself into a corner.
[00:28:35] Erin Nuttall: Or even think, you've heard what's the worst thing could happen, but if you're looking at it from a theme perspective, you could think, what is the opposite of this? How would I get to the opposite? And what would that look like? Right? So if you are doing a book with the theme on grief, then you know, is elation, is that the opposite? Because there might be a lot of complicated feelings if you are in the middle of grief and suddenly you are elated about something . I think it would be really a fun little writing exercise to look at all the different themes and opposites that you could think of, and then pick what stands out to you.
[00:29:14] Anne-Marie Strohman: So writers often talk about openings and closings mirror each other, and we looked at the opening sentence of this book. Oftentimes there's a contrast that shows characters’ growth. What happens with this ending in terms of the theme?
[00:29:29] Erin Nuttall: So the ending is excellent as you might expect. The very last line, so we had the very first line, if you remember, the first line was “A Quest can't trust anyone in this world except for a Quest.” So that was the first line. And then the last line is, “Luckily I had a new rule number one: trust no one.” So that… I know, right?
It's, it is just awesome, right? And it definitely sets up the next book for the theme for that as well. Only poor Ross is in a worse situation. She is Han Solo in Carbonite.
[00:30:14] Anne-Marie Strohman: And I think that's really important that you could look at this and say, oh, she starts not trusting people and she ends not trusting people like she's hasn't had character growth, but she's had a lot of character growth. She's explored this theme through these different interactions. And her conclusion at the end of this book, it's not, only trust a Quest. It's trust no one. So she's even more isolated, which sets her up in a more extreme circumstances, as you said, for the next book.
[00:30:39] Erin Nuttall: Right. And actually if this were to be this, if this were a standalone book that would be a really interesting way to end it. Because you're right, she has had a lot of character growth where she tries trusting people and she has periods where she does trust people and, and is successful. And then she has these betrayals so she goes from trust only your family to trust no one.
And that could be it, that could be her. It's not usually how children and young adult literature goes. I like to have a little hope, but it could be a really fantastic end if you wanted to have a little bit darker end.
[00:31:17] Anne-Marie Strohman: So that is our discussion of theme. Thank you so much, Erin. I have learned a lot. I'm ready to go look at my novel from a theme perspective as I go into revision this afternoon. And that is it for today. If you're enjoying this podcast, you can find more content like this at kidlitcraft.com. Find us on social media @KidLitCraft, and you can support this podcast on Patreon. We've also got T-shirts. You can find them at Cotton Bureau and we'll have a link in the show notes.
[Music outro]
[00:31:44] Erin Nuttall: Please download episodes; like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen; and let your writer friends know about this podcast. We can't wait to nerd out with you.
[00:31:54] Anne-Marie Strohman: Thanks for joining us. See you next time.
